How can companies reskill fast without losing experience?

Transcript

Miguel: Hi, welcome again to the Power of Possible, a podcast from SPS.

I'm Miguel and today we're going to be talking about a challenge that is already impacting many organizations. The shortage of skills, the retirement of experienced talent and how companies can realistically reskill their people while business and work models continue to evolve. I'm joined by two highly experienced leaders in this space. First, I would like to introduce to you Bettina Schaller.

She is the president of the World Employment Confederation and Group Public Affairs Director at ADECCO, with long-standing experience shaping the global conversation on labor markets, skills, and workforce transformation. Welcome, Bettina.

Bettina: Thank you so much.

Miguel: And we also have here Mick Everett, he's the People Director for SPS in the UK and Ireland, who brings deep hands-on experience from the day-to-day reality of managing people's strategy, reskilling initiatives, and workforce transitions inside organizations like SPS, for example. Welcome, Mick.

Mick: Thank you so much.

Miguel: So, let's get started. I'm going to start with a very open question, which is maybe you can start with you, Bettina. - When we talk about talent shortages, are we really facing a shortage? I mean, is it more a talent strategy problem? I mean, to what extent is the talent shortage actually a complexity problem? Are roles becoming simply too hard to perform? What do you think about it? Maybe it's a tricky question to start.

Bettina: Of course, yeah, no, no, that's excellent. I mean, the last one, are roles getting too tricky to perform? I think that is a deeply meaningful psychological question, which so often we couldn't answer with indeed with a simple statement, probably from the perspective of the requirements in our days relating to technology know-how. 

Yes, I mean, there could be a level of AI and technological illiteracy, which we see across many countries and many industries. And that's why there's some work to be done. And that's why, of course, the agenda of meeting to up and reskill your talent and your people on those topics is clear.

To pick up your question on talent shortage, look, I have a global role and therefore my instinctive answer would be that you'd have to look at which geography you're talking about. There are some parts of the world where talent abounds, just numerically. 

It's the second time now that I've spent almost a month in India at the beginning of the year, in February, and the Indian labor market, for instance, is lucky enough to see one million Indian talent enter the labor market every month. So that's 12 million people. So, if you talk about talent shortage, you know, obviously in India, I think they'd look at you funny, they've got other types of challenges to tackle there. 

And the same applies, you know, to Africa, where the demography is pointing towards millions of people entering the labor market right now and also in future, in Asia as well. 

So, regarding your question, if we look at it from the Western Northern hemisphere, yes, there's a talent shortage just from a numerical perspective. We're going to talk today about older workers and older talent. Clearly, demography is a factor. And we've been talking about this for many years, but now it is happening. 

I'm Swiss and just last week I saw the statistic that for the first time there are more than 65-year-olds than under 20-year-olds in Switzerland. So, we're now living in it, right? And therefore, yes, there is a talent shortage in those areas. And then, of course, yes, there's a talent shortage again because it's not enough to look at the amount of talent, it’s the employability, it's the skills match.

We do not have the right people in the labor market for the type of roles, tasks and requirements that are needed today and very likely in future. And therefore, yes, there is a shortage, there is a mismatch. And that is about policy making.Bettina Schaller

We're going to talk about it as well today. Yes, we do not have the right people in the labor market for the type of roles, tasks and requirements that are needed today and very likely in future. And therefore, yes, there is a shortage, there is a mismatch. And that's what, again, in my space, which is about policy making.

We're needing to accelerate by looking at instruments that are known but just not being applied by countries to address those shortages.

Miguel: Mick, from a UK and Ireland perspective, where do you feel the talent pressure most strongly? In which roles and or skills?

Mick: I think from an SPS perspective it's a little bit unique. So, I think we're typical in terms of we have back-office functions and then the majority of our recruitment hire is sort of operational in delivery. So, from a shortage you have the normal challenges about candidates, level of candidates, maybe some of the more specific in terms of back-office finance, etc. where you need a specific skill, but the majority of our recruitment is in the delivery space, sort of 80 % of it, sort of year on year. 

And actually, sort of almost flip it around the other way, that because of the business we have in the UK have probably about 75 % of our employees that join us through TUPE. So, for those that don't know, that's legislative protection of employment rights – TUPE: Transfer of Undertakings [Protection of Employment] Regulations-. So, most of our employees join us, so we haven't recruited them as such, but by the very nature we also then inherit lots of talent as a result of that. 

So, whilst we have the normal day-to-day challenges of recruitment, we've also got a rich talent bed that comes over through the TUPE process. So, our focus is very much about trying to understand, identify that talent that we already have and provide development opportunities throughout the business.

Miguel: Okay, and operationally, how do you identify when critical knowledge is at risk of disappearing? And how do you capture it before people leave?

Mick: I think Bettina sort of mentioned it. From a UK perspective there's no obligatory retirement date. So, people generally, you can't plan to say we're at 65, we're going to lose X amount in year one, year two, so you can't forward think. So, I guess it's a combination of processes. 

As an example, we have annual talent days, that's across the business within SPS. So, each geography will take time out as a leadership team to identify where there's risks in the business. So, are we taking on some new business or some business ending? It’s a real process to identify the talent within the business. And there's time spent identifying that and then planning. 

That's an element where we can look forward, we can get off the treadmill, look at our people. 

There's a mechanism that we do to use that. We spend some real quality time in terms of understanding where our talent is, where our risks are, to de-risk, to forward plan, and also to support that talent whichever stage they are, whether it be a succession planning for the next level, or they need support over the next one or two years. Now that is from a layer of the business, so it's not across the business. So, to my earlier point, that's one element. 

And then you have your kind of day to day, you're reliant on your managers, making sure they have their regular conversations, they're buying your appraisals, where you get those, where you're going next, how can we support you? 

As a business, we have an academy. We offer the opportunity for people to put their hands up either formally or informally, what support can we give them? So, I guess coming back to the question, it's a combination of different processes, but making sure people within the business, both people responsible for teams understand where they can get that support and also people in the business understand how can they develop within the business so we can support them.

Miguel: Bettina, experience is as we say walking out the door faster than new skills walking. Where do you see companies truly redesigning work instead of just hiring faster?

Bettina: I actually don't see that happening. It's still something - and now we're generalizing - that the HR space calls for and that people talk about. But I don't see it happening to the extent where it's starting to be systemic or structural. 

There are still more countries where it is still very costly and where there are administrative hurdles when it comes to keeping older workers in the workplace or actually hiring older talent back. 

Look, we're in the private employment services space and we know that a key factor to keep people in general in the workplace, and productive, is flexibility and providing flexible ways of working also in terms of the type of contracts. And again, there are countries that are making flexibility more expensive these days. There are countries that are restricting access to flexible work in certain industries as well. It's less the case, of course, in the professional services industry.

Everybody's free to work. But then there are countries where your tax system, you know, has disadvantages to having older workers, etc. So, to come back overall to what the companies are doing, to me, it actually boils down to the larger question of to which extent our businesses are also finally executing a talent strategy scan of the organization and therefore to which extent are they looking at their entire workforce from a total talent perspective and from a total talent lens and to which extent do they acknowledge that an inclusive talent pool is going to be the most productive and efficient to them. 

And if you start from that premise, then you will soon realize indeed that keeping and also hiring all the workers is a very logical part of that total talent strategy and that total talent workforce.

And that therefore, if you look at it holistically as well, challenges that what you might encounter with this cohort could be compensated by, you know, maybe less complications that you encounter by working or hiring with other types of talents. 

So, my answer, as you see, is that I still don't see companies applying that total talent workforce lens and therefore having a total talent strategy where they also have an understanding exactly of what type of tasks - and I'm not even as you can see talking about roles and jobs per se - but what tasks they need, and therefore then be able to segment and to direct towards one specific cohort.

Mick: Well, we've probably got four generations working for us now.

Bettina: Absolutely. Actually, we have five now. Yeah. So, we've already got the next generation that is entering the labor market. So, it's five. Yeah. And you know what, I'm going to encourage every organization to employ the five generations. The data we have out there will tell you that it's going to help your business, right? And do we have measures in place for all?

Well, we should, but companies are not doing it, right?

Mick: Yeah, and we say we back to what we say in the challenge, but also a positive of TUPE is that, you know, we inherit a lot of people into our business that have worked for other business for a long time. So, they bring a fantastic amount of knowledge and in the blend of bringing in new recruits that can leverage that understanding both in terms of the day-to-day process, but also the wisdom of someone who's been in that corporate environment. Otherwise, it's really, you know, it's very powerful. And we need to kind of leverage that. But yeah, back to your point, the generational things are happening in our business today.

Bettina: And I mean, the one thing is bringing in those different generations to work, but we probably, it's obvious, we always have the client in mind and clients these days are of all ages as well. We are providing talent to businesses that more and more are catering for, well, all the workers and obviously younger workers. So again, we're in a professional services space here.

The financial services industry is very interesting. We now have the biggest generation of people again leaving the workforce, which means they have a completely different behavior when it comes to their finances and the type of financial products, which comes back to organizations needing to hire people who have an understanding of this cohort, know, consumers of financial services that are, I guess, retired or of an older age.

So, you have an interest in having as a financial services industry company people of that age in your organization so that you can speak towards that age group as well. So, it's just that awareness of how the world of consumers as well, obviously because of demography is getting older and therefore for any business that serves this market, you have an interest in having all the workers speak and producing products and offers for that type of consumer base.

Miguel: Now that you are talking about demography, across Europe and the US, probably CEOs underestimate some drivers of the talent shift, Demography, rapid scale shift, expectation, complexity, etc. From your global perspective, which of these factors do CEOs most consistently overlook or in a way?

Bettina: I don't think they overlook it. I think, you know, the CEOs we talk to, I talk to, are acutely aware, right, of what the challenges are out there. The difficulty again is to translate it back into actionable measures at the company level. And here, I mean, there's no denial. Your workforce strategy and coming back to that point, this is a very complex animal.

And it's an animal that has historically been seen as a procedural, burdensome, very costly animal that was left with experts, obviously in the people’s domain, who obviously tried their best. Again.

What I'm trying to say here actually is very often detached from business and business needs and business reality. So, the shift and we've seen that since COVID where HR directors, CHROs, people directors have been catapulted into the strategic discussions at the company level because the realization that, well if you don't have the right people who are working in the right conditions under the right frameworks, then you're not going to be able, obviously, to deliver the products. 

Again, it's been talked about for a long time, but COVID accelerated that closeness that is needed between your people strategy and your business strategy. Now, the latest disruptor in that space is technology, with notably the agentification, where obviously, you know, there's big headlines around agents taking on tasks. 

What it means, you know, Mark Benioff – Salesforce CEO- two years ago was the first one to say that we're the last generation of leaders to only lead humans because from now on, you're going to have to lead humans and agents. Some time has gone by since then.

Where I stand now is I actually struggle to compare, not even compare, but to put an agent at the same level as humans because we are right now very far away still and I don't want to actually humanize an agent, which is just a tech, software thing.

But to come back, because of now technology, again back to the CEOs, they have no choice but to get a full understanding of the tasks and the roles that need to be performed in the organization and then to allocate the right resources to that.

And I say, here human resources with the utmost respect for the human side of things. And it could well be that, of course, an agent or technology can take on that role. But still, by the way, in most organizations, it's humans who take on that role. And then the question is, OK, does this human have to sit, first of all, in the same country as the organization? Does the human have to be employed on a long-term open-ended contract?

Can the human be sitting in India or in Africa, which means it's very likely an employer of record contract or a statement of work or any type of other contract? Do I get talent in via project work, etc. And so, all these elements, believe, CEOs have on their mind these days.

And what I'm looking forward to is the day when they will have the courage, I guess, and the discipline to dig deep on making that analysis and then from there on taking the decision on what the best workforce mix is for their business.

Miguel: Good point.

Mick: You make a good point on COVID, the change and where that couldn't possibly be done remotely, but the necessity of people physically not being able to get into places kind of really lifted the lid and we can actually do it. So, COVID for many reasons, flexible working, that's kind of the first or second question people ask when they want to join a company, is it of work from home, is it hybrid working? 

But yeah, in terms of the solutions, yeah, COVID really kind of that part and said because we need to do this. Historically we couldn't possibly do it for security, but you know necessity found a way so that's kind of really opened things up.

There's now really the possibility to tap into talent all over the world depending on what you need because contractually it's feasible. Having said that, not every country has the regulatory framework to allow for it. Bettina Schaller

Bettina: No, and that's why COVID accelerated that beautiful space of flexible working. And again, I'm not talking about it only from a geographic point of view, you work at home or in the office or from a working hours point of view, but also flexible work contracts. There's now really the possibility to tap into talent all over the world depending on what you need because contractually it's feasible. Having said that, not every country has the regulatory framework to allow for it. So that's something that still needs to be looked at.

Mick: Yeah, I agree. It’s not that we don’t use zero-hours contracts in the UK, but that's kind of frowned on by the new labour government. Also, for some people, certainly from a generational perspective, they want that flexibility that they're not worried about maybe not necessarily working x number of hours, but so it's trying to get the balance but to tap into that flexibility by shutting it off completely.

Miguel: Going back to the technology point of view, I mean, to the disruption, this is a general trend right now. Companies are facing the re-skilling of employees. Sometimes I have this concern about if we are re-training people for jobs that may disappear in the future, like if that could happen, how can should companies face that? This is constantly evolving.

Bettina: May I take this one again? I love this question. Obviously, you know, my first reaction is, of course, we're training people for jobs that are going to disappear. I mean, this is obvious, right? Do we therefore need to stop training them right now? No. 

This might sound counterintuitive for, you know, anybody in business who's now putting the economic value of, you know, the cost of training out there. 

Look, I'm really, really losing my patience with any business in any organization that doesn't understand the importance of training your people. And it shouldn't be seen as a cost. It is an investment. Whatever, if you're not doing it, you're bringing forward wrong excuses. I am sorry, you're making the wrong choice. 

Now, I understand that if you're putting all the investment up into training people, you want to make sure that there's, you know, certain longevity, right? to what the training curriculum looks like. So, it's up to you to be smart about it. And do we know today which jobs are going to disappear? No, we don't. And that's why just, you know, accept the assumption it could be that in a few years, that particular job is not going to exist anymore.

But actually the act of training, the act of skilling, also just building the muscle in your workforce of training is so much worth it. And by experience, the moment you train and empower anybody in your cohort, you're actually going to increase engagement, you're going to increase retention, you're going to increase the readiness of that specific talent to…I said engagement already, but engage in a way that that, you know, same person that is benefiting from that supposedly non future training course can make a suggestion of, well, maybe knowing that these tasks are slowly vanishing in your organization, you want to redraft your curriculum, etc. So, I think you get the gist of what I'm trying to say here. 

Training shouldn’t be seen as a cost. It is an investment… If you’re not doing it, you’re making the wrong choice.Bettina Schaller

Let's just stop. you know, of being worried of jobs disappearing and therefore finding ourselves in a paralysis where we end up doing nothing and where this is again, I'm sorry, an excuse for doing nothing. Get active, build the training curricula and materials for your people and value your people by just also showing to them that you're investing in them.

Miguel: Mick, taking back to reskilling programs, from your perspective, when you took out this kind of reskilling programs that work in, for example, in your teams, what made them successful? Design, leadership, support, communication?

Mick: Yeah, I mean, I probably changed the terminology from re-skilling to up-skilling. I think that's kind of different strands. 

So, we're an outsourced business. I think you made a point earlier in terms of generational, it's not just about generation, but from an outsourcing perspective and development opportunities, certain groups of people may have been, you mentioned banking, so might work for a bank for 20 years in office or offices. 

As a business we have 200, 300 clients in different offices so in the same space we can provide them the opportunity maybe they've been looking too concerned or too worried to make the leap outside of that business, so I think from an outsourcing perspective that gives opportunities for those that come over to us through our TUPE. 

There's loads of opportunities within the business, maybe doing the same job or the next step up for you, how can we help you get there? So, and then back to my earlier point, really around just having different programs. 

Again, in terms of upskilling, we have a couple of programs globally and locally. Locally we call it the Employee Development Program, to your point about investing in training.

We've expanded that and I think whilst we always had a training budget, I think there's a reality, that the apprentice levy that was introduced effectively as a tax, has forced businesses to rethink how they can utilize it because you kind of use it or you lose it. 

So, I think with our development program now, both what we had in terms of our existing budget, plus the opportunity to tap into the courses available, we've expanded that training.

To your point in terms of we identify the talent, offer the programs for people to put their hand up, say I want to get on, there's a formal process. And then it's about a blend of some mentoring, some coaching, some formal training, whether that be qualifications or through the levies, some qualifications that we can help support them. 

They might be starting their management journey taking the step up, giving them good grounding, something they can refer to, they can use day to day. 

So, I think back to your question, it's not necessarily about “we need to re-skill”,  I think it's a continual up-skilling, both in terms of we do our talent day, we need to focus on probably a smaller group of people because there's more risk and there's more influence for those people. 

And then the general employee base, they understand that there are development programs available both globally and locally. And then there's also some sponsorship. I mentioned coaching, so there is a focus—within our diversity and inclusion efforts—where are people from socio-economic backgrounds that perhaps have been concerned about putting their hand up or getting on.

So again, building programs where people can see their aspiration, they can get on and there's a mechanism for them to do that and there's a support network for them to do that.

It’s not necessarily re-skilling, it's an up-skilling, that's continual through a development. We very much want people to join us, whether that's through direct hire or they join us through TUPE, but they can see, I'd guess, a pathway but also an opportunity. It's not, because we're sort of almost like 300 businesses within one because we're outsourcing businesses, so that's a pro and a con.

But I think as a business, it's upon us, to your point, making sure they understand that we're there to invest them. That may not be a monetary course, it may be a mentor, it may be a coaching, it be a profile. That's very much something that's a continual thing through the business.

Miguel: There's a specific program that I want to ask you about, Betina, which is the Tokyo Career Trial 65, which is an innovative way of activating older workers. And what does it teach us? I mean, what's the first step for a company wanting to replicate? Maybe you can explain a little bit more about this.

Bettina: Amazing that you spotted this program. Thank you very much for that. Indeed, it's an initiative that was launched around six years ago in Japan. In Japan and specifically in Tokyo.

Japanese society and workforce is shrinking on a yearly basis. The population is aging; the workforce is aging. There are actually not enough young people coming in, so amongst the measures that Japan has looked at -which also include immigration measures, by the way-  which for the Japanese society and culture are actually very disruptive.

They of course also looked at reintroducing older talent to the workplace. And so, in Tokyo, specifically the Tokyo administration put out this initiative, and it was logical that companies in the private employment services space that were in - as president of the World Employment Confederation, I represent this industry indeed - that these companies would come in to activate the program. And so, I happen to work for one of those private employment services companies, the ADECCO Group, which operates in 60 countries around the world, including Japan.

And so, I know from colleagues that they immediately supported this initiative, which is very much aimed at administration roles, IT tech roles. And they brought in now on average every year, a thousand older workers. By the way, I asked what the mix was on older ladies and older gentlemen, and it was interesting to see that it's 30 % women have benefited from this program. I think it's reflective actually of the overall stats we see very generalizing here of participation in that space. 

And so they've run this with career counseling and assessment and career guidance programs and it's been very successful. The aim has been to offer first flexible contracts.

Mick: Is that a departure from what they would normally have?

Bettina: They wouldn't have it at all. Those cohorts would otherwise not have come back to the labor market. So, there's this piece about being very intentional, setting out a program. There are the government support and framework behind it. And now what I heard is on a yearly basis, out of the thousand that took it and that for a certain amount of time were hired on flexible contracts in fixed term, actually a hundred stayed on in the company. So they were then permanently hired by those employers. I hear that again on average 500 companies participated. These are just the statistics for the Adecco group in Japan, right? There's more participants in this program. But again, thank you for picking out this particular initiative because it is a successful initiative and indicates that again, if you put your mind to it and the right instruments, you can bring all the workers and that know-how back into the productive system.

Miguel: Great. I also wanted to ask you, well, we've talked about the structural challenges companies are facing, but one strategy that often gets misunderstood is outsourcing, right? Yet when it's done well, it can actually expand capabilities and relieve pressure on local teams. From your global perspective, how can outsourcing become a responsible and effective way for companies to address talent gaps?

Bettina: I'm a big fan of outsourcing as part of that bouquet of flexible employment options. And so, it might not be the right instrument for, you know, I'm not even going to say a company, but for that specific project or for the execution of that business goal, right? But then it might very well be exactly the right thing. 

And I'm coming back to my initial statement about really needing to be ruthless about your workforce strategy, about being very smart on what the mix is of your workforce, and then about utilizing all those flexible instruments. And again, outsourcing is absolutely in many industries, many countries, exactly the right solution that you might look for. That’s the space in the professional services industry, I think these days in tech related space as well, it's something that I think will only increase looking at the needs that companies have.

So, to just, you know, outsource whatever solution you need to be delivered makes perfect sense. We're in the HR space. I'm a big fan for organizations to fall back on outsourced HR solutions as well. That's, you know, exponentially better than not doing anything or doing something in-house wrong.

I only applaud outsourcing experts who do that in the most compliant, ethical way... We've just heard how much you invest in training as well. So, clearly your talent is in an environment which is very enhancing, if I may say so. 

From my perspective, one of the future ready instruments that companies and therefore also governments need to foster.

Mick: And I think, you know, I mentioned it earlier, I mean, from an outsourcing perspective, everywhere, every contract that we win involves a TUPE. Obviously, there's change, there's concern, there's what's going to happen… you know, depending on, some people may be first generation, third generation, fourth generation TUPE…, but from an outsourcing perspective, certainly from HR, I'm very much an advocate and in promoting the opportunities that it presents now. That can sound like a great tagline when you go in and you talk to people, but what does it actually mean? 

But we've got some real evidence that from a retention perspective, we've got people that joined us through TUPE as from a delivery perspective that have moved up, that have stayed. So, there's some real tangible examples rather than me or my team talking about going through a slideshow. You know, there's some real tangible benefits.

We had in our connected workplace solutions recently, big outsourcing and yes, there's change but I think sort of that about 35, 40 people have stepped up now with more responsibility… would they have had that if it remained as the same or not?, you could argue, but it does create change. And with change, there are generally opportunities. 

And we're very much a big advocate of that. Because we have to demonstrate that as an outsourcing provider: adding value. 

If you look at it and go, we'll just do it and we'll do it cheaper; that's just not going to work. You've got to innovate and you've got to create, but you've got to articulate that to the people to bring them on that journey. But as long as they know, there's an opportunity for them to be part of that.

Miguel: I'm afraid that we've reached the wrap up. So this is a question for both of you. Maybe you can start, Mick. From your point of view, what truly works to retain right now and transfer critical knowledge globally and operationally?

Mick: Say that again.

Miguel: What truly works to retain knowledge in the end? 

I mean, if you have to list like 3 or 4, or the number that you need of specific points that will help companies to retain the knowledge from those retired employees, what would it be?

Mick: Yeah, I guess it's an element. So again, from the UK, there's no retirement age. So, we again, we don't have an exodus of X amount of employees who reaches that nature every year. So that's good. So that doesn't mean to say that retention is not an issue for us. You know, we work in a competitive environment. 

People want to stay, they want to develop… so it’s about demonstrating that there’s a development path and that they feel valued within the business.Mick Everett

I think probably going to repeat myself a little bit: I guess it's demonstrating to the employees that there's a development path or they feel worth an acknowledge within the business because they want to hang about, they want to stay, they want to develop. Not everyone wants to get here. We want people that are very good at their jobs here and they can retain that knowledge and share that knowledge. 

I think it's probably a combination of employees who understand what opportunities there are to develop, so we can retain that knowledge, they can pass it on through our development programs and through our mentoring programs.

So mentoring, even reverse mentoring, which we're going to introduce. But back to the generational tapping into that experience, work- life experience from people in the business with others coming into the business. We can retain that and impart that knowledge within the business. So, I don't think there's a single area that I would particularly focus on.

We're always promoting development but also offering support programs which people can tap into. And then as I said earlier, in terms of our strategy, we have a talent day that will then focus on questions like we've got this layer of employees, who would we using our models identify as talent?, how do we support them?, what's coming up in the business? where do we need specific knowledge because we might have to recruit that externally?

So you're going to have to leverage the external market in certain areas. So that's an opportunity where you can, as I say, strategically look at where you need to go. Are there people in the business who could do it within six months or three years? No, right?

We need to go to market and be very sort of focused on that. So, I think it's a blend of processes, ethos in the business that are very acutely aware that we need to retain and develop that talent in the business.

Miguel: What do you think, Bettina?

Bettina: So, I will sign everything that you've just said and I'll just go that step backwards or the more meta level, which comes back to CEOs and leadership making sure that their talent strategy is absolute number one and that they invest appropriately.

What I'm seeing generally is that with the AI hype and the tech hype, there's been, I can't even say the word, far-a-bulistic or just incredible amounts of investments that have gone into AI and tech. And I keep thinking if only, you know, X percent had gone into the workforce and into the people strategy, where would the world be now? Right? 

And where would those organizations be now? And actually maybe just to deviate a little bit, but I have to say it since the world has crumbled into conflict and war, we see a lot of budgets that have been allocated to employing, to skilling actually, at the government level, slowly being pulled away and put into, you know, defense. 

I'm deviating, but it's all understandable. It just brings me back to, in order to execute everything, you've mentioned, Mike, and one, again, can't do enough, make sure that you give absolute priority to your people’s strategy. 

And then there's one thing which I find fascinating, the lack of communication around it, as much internally but also externally. I mean, we started with talent shortage, we started with the fact that there's disruption. So, for a business, it's incredibly tough to attract the type of talent needed from all ages.

Bettina: So, the quest that you have as an organization to be perceived as this super attractive employer, you know, is very, very difficult. So, you should be focusing on letting the market and letting the world know that you are this amazing place to work, right?

And it's obviously easier for some big brands, we know it, but by the way, those big brands invest humongous in maintaining that brand value in terms of being a great place to work and a great employer. And so, if you're a business at any stage, make sure that you let everybody know how great your programs are, your re-skilling and your whole talent strategy is once you've got it, right? If you don't have it, don't spread any facts if you don't do it.

I'm assuming now you do it but then make sure that you talk about it. And the way you talk about it, don't let your employees talk. I mean, I'm not a communications expert. There are plenty ways there. It obviously needs to be authentic as well. But since I'm in this employment space, I would actually love to see more being talked about good employers who do it, you know, using all the tools that flexibility offers you today.

And by the way, I also think that this all feeds into this agenda of today where we talk about the need for more human centricity and more human focused way of doing things. But this might actually be the topic of an entirely different podcast. I will just leave it here.

Miguel: There's a way to go. OK, so thanks to both of you for being here today. It was such a great conversation. And I think that's the that was the last question. So now it's time to say thank you to all of you listening and remind you that you can listen to our next episode in Spotify, Amazon, and Apple.